Full Transcript:

Emily Race: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Founding Mothers podcast, where we're imagining new ways of living with one another and our planet. I'm your host, Emily Race.

Today we are speaking with Chiara Francesca. Chiara is a queer disabled artist, writer, organizer, acupuncturist, former teen mother, first-gen college grad, and Italian immigrant to the occupied Indigenous territories currently known as the United States.

Chiara Francesca: Being isolated and alienated, I think really pushes on our fear centers, even at a nervous system level, when it's like, "well, if I don't take care of my kid, then no one else will." You know? And then everybody else is the enemy.

Emily Race: Chiara has been involved in movements for justice for over two decades, with a [00:01:00] focus on gender violence prevention, healing, justice, and politicized art making. They have written and spoken on a wide variety of topics, including disability, justice building, anti-capitalist systems, accessible healthcare, and using art as a tool for structural change.

Welcome, Chiara. It's such a honor, honestly, to be with you in conversation today. Thank you for being here.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm humbled and super grateful to be here.

I know that dreaming new worlds is, I would say, one of your strengths from what I've seen of your work. I'm looking forward to hearing what visions you have for the world. But first, could we start by having you share with listeners who you are and maybe more specifically, who are you today?

Chiara Francesca: That's such a good question. Today I am a pretty slow moving being, adjusting to the weather changing, which [00:02:00] usually has an effect on chronic illness. Yeah, learning to set boundaries with family and work, which is a lifelong learning curve. I'll just be happy with that.

Emily Race: I'm happy with that. I'm happy with that. And I honor you for the boundary setting. That is a lifelong practice, for sure, for many of us.

Do you mind sharing a bit about how you would define the "work that you do", in the world?

Chiara Francesca: The common thread of the work that I do, since being a young teenager, has been to think about power structures and to connect my personal experience to larger dynamics of power and oppression, coming from a survival necessity.

The way in which that has played out has really changed throughout time. My first home in which I learned to [00:03:00] connect the dots has been gender violence prevention and prison abolition efforts. And that has been the case since I was a teenager. I moved into art making and visual arts, and that has also been part of my life for a long time, but I think there was a lot of tension between art making and trying to fold visual arts into what felt aligned politically.

In the later iteration, I studied acupuncture, and really went deeper into community health and thinking a lot about repair and disability justice. From a personal experience, how the medical systems worked and really did not work in my own life, and tried to ask the question, just like with the other aspects of my life, knowing that I'm not alone in that and trying to see the ways in which the systems are not necessarily meeting our needs, and trying to think hard about how [00:04:00] they could do better.

I feel like the compass has been the same throughout my life to really strive for lessening unnecessary suffering, in a really big way.

And then the way which it's manifested have changed as I've changed, as the world has changed, as I learned more, met people and all of that.

Emily Race: I'm so curious, is this compass as you refer to it, would you say you were born with that or was there a pivotal defining moment that you can remember?

Chiara Francesca: The silver lining of being born outside of what is considered norm in a certain culture puts you into an observer status, right? Growing up with a visible disability and as a queer kid in a really traditional, socially conservative culture, meant that I couldn't fit in even if I wanted to.

For how much that is a fraught experience, it also put me into a position of being on the outside, observing in. I either internalized the messages that the culture was giving me, which I did, a good amount of, and really felt crappy about myself, or I had to also look at why those messages were there in the first place, whether they were valid or not. Who the culture deemed valuable and who it didn't. And to also really strive to find some community, among feeling very isolated as a person who was labeled as different from a very early age.

The compass was there because of the conditions of my life that are not in my control. It's just the cards that were dealt. I can remember many times in life having these moments of having to choose between self-hatred or anger towards everyone or finding another way.

I've tried really hard [00:06:00] to find another way, and it doesn't mean that there are moments of frustration or anger towards myself or towards the systems, but it doesn't feel like a great place to be for a lifetime.

Emily Race: Yeah. I appreciate what you just shared and I know there's probably so many more pieces to that. And I wanna honor the parts that did not feel "good", per se, and also acknowledge how grateful I am, how you've been able to transmute some of this and to vision, art, different ways of creating a different culture for others to be inspired by and to benefit from. I think voices like yours are so important, and that's why I'm grateful that you're here today.

If we can dive in to this vision piece, I'd love to spend lots of time with you there.

First and foremost, if we were to imagine a new world, how would you like that to look?

Chiara Francesca: I try to spend some time there on the regular, and really imagine the shapes of it. There are ways to imagine that, that are really internal and it's [00:07:00] more like asking, " what would it take for my body to feel safe?" "What would it take for my hypervigilance to come down a couple of notches?", right?

"What would it take for me to encounter another person with an open heart instead of with all the defenses that I've built up?" That's one approach that starts with the body, and then there's the bird's eye approach, which is really looking at big systems of inequality and how they came to be and what steps could move us towards less power differentials between people.

Doing that kind of micro and macro shift all the time gives me a better view of a different kind of future could look like or present.

I also think that community and relationship is really central also. In earlier times in my life, I approached these questions in a much [00:08:00] more solitary way and tried to even put forth solitary solutions.

One example of that, when I came out of acupuncture school, I really wanted to start a sliding scale clinic in Chicago because that didn't exist at the time to make the medicine accessible to as many people as possible.

The biggest learning curve that happened is it was really, really unsustainable for me to do it as one person, physically and financially and in every possible way. The really big lesson there was to take time to really think about what it would be like to build in community and also what is preventing us from doing that.

One of the things I've been thinking about a lot lately is, what tools do we need to create community and what things are coming in the way, in movement work?

I've seen amazing organizing pods of people fall apart because of conflict and [00:09:00] people's trauma surfacing, in ways that became a break that couldn't be repaired.

When I look at how we are trained in our cultures and what seems to be missing, the piece of, whether we call it conflict resolution or whether we call it trust building or whether we call it mediation, that seems to be a piece that as a society, we don't know how to do well.

And when we see that in an abolitionist sense of really thinking hard about a world where punishment and prisons and police was not the way in which we deal with harm, then building tools for intimacy, building trust, building conflict resolution, addressing harm, become central and vital and absolutely necessary.

That feels like a first step for me. We cannot have housing co-ops if we don't know how to get along with each other.

Emily Race: Right.

Chiara Francesca: You know. We cannot organize for affordable housing or [00:10:00] for food justice or for education if the relationships that we have with each other continuously fall apart because we cannot move through conflict in a way that is generative, or we cannot build trust across difference. Right?

That's been what has surfaced as really necessary to learn.

Emily Race: As the foundation, is what I'm hearing, for everything else. That soil, for everything else to be able to grow from. That's beautiful.

The way you put that I'm hearing is the relationship piece, which from community can grow, and then there's that somatic piece, what is the body pointing out that we need.

You posed a really beautiful question around, what is your body telling you it needs to feel safe. What do you imagine there? What might that look like?

Chiara Francesca: Yeah. As somebody who came from a family where I did not learn that, and where there was a high degree of violence, I think it was a huge learning curve for me to [00:11:00] check in with my body and to know what I was feeling, to then be able to interface with another person. And to know if I was in a healthy relationship or friendship.

I think for so many of us, disassociation becomes a necessity and a tool of survival. That's something that also should be honored as a tool of survival, and also, if we are disconnected from our bodies, it's actually really hard to move towards justice. Because we don't even know what we are feeling in the first place, right?

If I'm with a person and having a conversation and maybe there's some tension there and I'm completely disconnected from my body, it's gonna be so much harder for me to know what I need in that moment to voice my emotions to even have empathy for the other person.

I taught in public school and I used to do this with the students in the class, to just spend even 10 seconds every day to check in [00:12:00] with the body. To remember we have a body, first of all, since so much of our lives are lived in the brain.

Emily Race: Yes.

Chiara Francesca: And on screens, you know?

Emily Race: Yep.

Chiara Francesca: It's so easy to feel like there's nothing happening below the neck. So I think even having some really simple, few moments to just check in and say hello to different parts and start to recognize what feels open and what feels tight.

And then the next step is to also associate different bodily sensations with emotions.

And it's a process and it can be quite uncomfortable, especially if disassociation has been our savior, and our survival tool. Checking in can feel scary and can be met with a lot of resistance and I just wanna name that because that's okay. And that's perfectly normal.

And again, it can be tiny short spurts of dropping back into the body and then surfacing again, and it's a practice and it's, it's long; long learning [00:13:00] journey.

That's how I think of the embodiment piece.

Emily Race: Mm-hmm. Thank you for naming that around the disassociation being like normalizing that reaction. Many people probably need to hear that. Also what I'm hearing from a vision piece is a world where we have capacity and space and tools, I would add, to be able to check in with ourselves regularly in ways that feel safe so that we can create worlds from a place of embodiment rather than that dissociation.

So that's where ideally we would like to create from. Is that how you would put it?

Chiara Francesca: Yes, and that's how we would relate to each other. From a certain degree of presence.

I also think that systems like white supremacy and capitalism and patriarchy really depend on people being cut away from empathy and from seeing another person is fully human, you know?

Emily Race: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Chiara Francesca: So there is somewhere in there where I do hope that being in the body can [00:14:00] also practice of resistance, right? In our individual lives, the next time we witness something that is dehumanizing to another person, it's harder to shut down that voice in our heads that is part of being human that says that's not right. Living in the US right now, to survive, we have to shut down a lot of the " that's not right" that is central to being a person. Which is also traumatic to have to do that just to get through the day.

So that's kind of the macro, the zooming out, thinking about embodiment, not as just an individual practice, but really, how does it create ripple effects in how we relate to each other, in the neighborhood, in our cities, at a bigger level with each other.

Emily Race: Mm-hmm. I wanna just go back to what you said it was so potent and resonant for me at least, around how these systems of cis hetero patriarchy, capitalism, white supremacy, how they're so reliant on that disembodiment and I feel chills and almost wanna start crying a bit [00:15:00] because that numbness that I think many of us have become accustomed to, it is about being disconnected from our humanity and the humanity of others.

Is there anything else that you wanna share around that reliance that you just spoke to?

Chiara Francesca: I think I came from a place where, again, anger was very present and it was easy for me to see groups of people that I thought of as oppressive to me as not being able to see their humanity and really dismissing people. More recently, the nuance that I've been trying to hold is to both recognize, the power structures that are oppressive, and also to recognize that even the people that are benefiting from those power structures are not being moved closer to humanity, you know what I'm saying? Those power structures are hurting everybody.

And they're dehumanizing everybody. But they're doing that in a way that is unequal and in a way that some people profit, but not in their souls, you know, they profit materially, but it's such an empty pursuit.

It's allowed me to hopefully be a less angry person and be more compassionate when people behave in ways that are dehumanizing to me, but that I can still see them as a person, one, and two, that isolation from each other will not bring forth a different kind of world, you know? That's hard and scary to imagine, but in a way, we do need solidarity and relationship and bridges cross class, cross gender, cross race, solidarity. Which again goes back to the relationship building and the conflict resolution and all of that.

The piece that is really tricky is how to do that in a way that isn't harmful when people come together to a table with unequal power. One-on-one, it's a lot easier. [00:17:00] When it's on a larger scale, the stakes become so much higher of how much harm people that have more power can do to people who are oppressed.

But regardless, I have to have hope that that's possible, otherwise, I don't think we're going to see the massive scale change that we need to lessen suffering for everybody.

Emily Race: Mm-hmm.Out of the context of referring to things that are working so we could replicate them or learn from them and grow, what are some examples you've seen, if any, around these power differentials coming together and it not being one of harm, but one of reparation, or let's say regeneration?

Chiara Francesca: There's so many examples of that. I'm in Chicago right now and Chicago has this rich history of coalition building between different people. One that is historically really significant is the Rainbow Coalition, which had poor white people that had moved from Appalachia, in coalition with Black organizers and Puerto Rican organizers to address police [00:18:00] brutality, but also to address housing shortages and material needs of poor people in a city that is one of the most segregated in the country. And this was in the sixties and seventies.

Unfortunately what happened is that the city came down really, really hard on that coalition and did everything they could to destroy it.

The other piece is that I think when people do collaborate together, there's actually a lot of power that can be built off of that. Be ready for the backlash from the establishment and knowing how to respond to that.

And with that, what's also really important, is to know that longevity does not equal success. Something can happen for six months and have this ripple effects that are history changing and just because it folded or it was repressed out of existence, it doesn't mean that it wasn't important and powerful.

Nature has so much to teach us, because there is this life cycle of things and part of capitalism is this mentality that something being long lasting or lasting forever is what makes it powerful and it's just not realistic as a metric for relationships or for organizing pods, you know?

That's also a reminder to myself, things can happen from a certain time and then sunset and that sunsetting doesn't take away from the power that something had.

Emily Race: That framework of thinking about success doesn't have to coincide with longevity. That can counter so much burnout tendency that can happen, especially in the justice space. It can also help us realize when the season of something has truly ended, and to walk away in a celebratory fashion and not hold onto things that are dead or dying too long, which cannot be healthy.

Wow, that is really mind blowing in a sense to just think about success differently in that way.

Now [00:20:00] I'd like to actually look at from that bird's eye view and maybe it's more granular as well, you talk about bringing more of that humanity, through this relationship with ourselves, our bodies, our relationship with each other.

What would a more human-centric system look like?

Chiara Francesca: Yeah, on a super basic level, a more centric human system, is a system where unnecessary suffering is not a thing. There is suffering that is part of being alive, whether it's heartbreak or illness that cannot be changed. And also, everyone could have access to housing, food, education, healthcare. There is no reason why people shouldn't have their basic needs met besides gross inequality, you know, where some people have so much more than they could ever use in a lifetime.

I really think that a world where being houseless is not part of reality is absolutely possible. Where no one has to worry about childcare for their children or be scared of getting into an accident, not because of getting hurt, but because of the bills. Those things really take away from our humanity and then set up a system of competition and scarcity and looking at each other as a threat and as enemies instead of fellow humans.

Emily Race: Just to jump in there, because I would say, especially with this listener base, so many of us would agree, "yes, that should be the norm". And yet it's almost like we are lost at how to get there. Not to put this on you to say you need to have the answers, but I am curious from your perspective, how might we get there to that being the norm?

Chiara Francesca: Part of it starts with the self. One of the things that really breaks my heart is to see how folks say that they're liberal until it comes down to their life.

To give a very, very direct example, there has been a lot of talk about how white parents of a certain class, how their behavior has changed once their child goes to school in big cities. There was a lot written about the dynamic [00:22:00] that happened in New York City in terms of people who would say that they were liberal or they were progressive, but when interfaced with their child going to school, would put their power and their connections and their resources to the service of inequality. In the sense of leaving other kids behind if it benefited their child.

Another way in which I see that is again, this is happening in San Francisco, where houseless shelters were proposed in, again, liberal neighborhoods of a certain class, and those proposals were shut down and voted out of existence, right?

It comes back to that compass of what are we personally willing to stake at the service of a less messed up world? Some discomfort is going to be part of that.

Emily Race: Right.

Chiara Francesca: And some situations in which there might be not just discomfort, but [00:23:00] maybe some fear or friction or tension even within ourselves, but there has to be a way in which what we think is right and then how we act in our lives match, you know?

I think that's difficult to do. I am a parent and there's been many times in my life, being a parent, where there are those moments of wanting to protect, or our personal politics being pushed upon. And also to be okay that we're not gonna get it right every time. But to at least have some awareness at how we are using our resources and power and asking ourselves, is the way in which I'm using my resources and power moving the world towards more equality or am I hoarding that power and resources, for my own protection, right? Or for my own comfort even.

Emily Race: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. What's coming up for me is I can relate to that experience of coming up against that edge, and then to go back to the part of your vision around that community aspect, that relational aspect, I feel like it's so much easier to [00:24:00] avoid the edge if we're in isolation and we're not supported by community or held accountable by community.

So I see that really going hand in hand. I'm not sure if you have a way forward for folks who are like, "I do feel isolated and I don't know where to start in building that community", but that's a question that comes to mind is, what does that look like to even start creating that community accountability and support in one's life.

Chiara Francesca: Yeah. No, I mean, I think you're a hundred percent on that. Being isolated and alienated, I think it really pushes on our fear centers. Even at a nervous system level, you know?

When it's like, "well, if I don't take care of my kid, then no one else will." And that everybody else is the enemy.

Community really is how we move away from that place of fear and scarcity in isolation towards trust and towards knowing that we are actually not the person that has to have all the answers for safety for ourselves and the people we love. That actually safety lies in community.

Something comes to mind, I just had a [00:25:00] conversation recently about climate change where this person that is an acquaintance was talking about where they're gonna move and asking me, "did you make plans for moving if this and this happens."

And I just thought that is so wild and interesting. And understandable too, that again, we are so conditioned by capitalism to think in these individual terms, that we would think that the solution to climate change, which is a huge worldwide phenomenon, would be to individually find a little island of safety somewhere, you know?

And it's like we are so interconnected that that's completely futile. That would not happen. And again though, that instinct of, "I am afraid and I want to do something about that fear, and if I am disconnected, the only way I can take care of that fear is by doing something as an individual", right?

So to your question, how do we build community, [00:26:00] first of all, we have to acknowledge that US society is built so that alienation is the norm, because that's how you get good workers.

Again, it's not any person's individual fault if you feel isolated, if you feel alone, if you have a hard time having deep friendships, right?

The system is very much designed for that to be the norm. And also there are plenty of cracks in that system.

And part of that, with the pandemic, mutual aid has become part of the lexicon for a lot of folks. I really think that everywhere we live, maybe not in our town, but in the town next to ours, or if we're in cities, every neighborhood definitely has mutual aid efforts and it's more about knowing what do you love and how can you connect with others that love what you love?

And make your sphere of influence a little less lonely and a little less alienated and a little more human.

In my neighborhood in Chicago, there's people that are doing community jail support and show up at the [00:27:00] jail with food and clothes and CTA passes, bus passes, and give people rides. There's obviously community gardens, there's mutual aid efforts, there's thrift popups that then donate the money to community efforts that are doing all sorts of stuff. There's like a co-op for childcare, for organizers so that if people are organizing, they're called ChiChiCo, the Chicago Childcare Collective, they will show up and take care of kids so that the parents can talk to each other and organize. There's endless possibilities. And also, as a disabled person, it is hard for me to do physical things a lot of the time. And for how much zoom is the devil and everybody's so freaking burntout on it, it's also very useful for folks that have different levels of physical abilities.

One of my friends has done this amazing thing where she has two hours every week where we log into Zoom and we're on it together and each of us can [00:28:00] work on whatever we want, and then if we want, we check in about it and tell each other what we've been working on. It's this moment of being like, "Hey, you're there too. And I'm here too, and we're both alive right now, and we are sharing this space." And that already moves us a little further away from alienation, you know?

It doesn't have to be this huge thing. It can be small. But again, is it moving our hearts more towards being a whole person? Or is it moving us more towards this alienated, less human being?

Emily Race: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. That feels like a very accessible, tangible way for folks to start cultivating community if that's something that's missing. And also, I would add, cultivate more of what you love in your life. If you're doing something that you love or want to learn more about, in community, it can amplify that experience in a nourishing way that's not possible alone.

One other piece that I wanted to focus on with the vision, if we have time for it here, is in re-imagining healthcare, health services, you mentioned with your [00:29:00] own experience with that sliding scale model, it wasn't sustainable for you.

And I feel like sustainability for healthcare practitioners is a challenge. Is there anything around the vision around what healthcare or healing services might look like in an ideal world?

Chiara Francesca: That also really begs the question of "what is healthcare", right? There is healthcare as it's recognized by Medicare, Medicaid, and the MD model, and that's one way of thinking about healthcare.

There's also the ways in which communities that have not had access to insurance have taken care of each other, by sharing food and by sharing herbal medicine and by being in community with each other. I think of that also as healthcare.

There's also a whole plethora of traditional practices that are outside of what the American Medical Association recognizes as healthcare, that are also addressing people's health and supporting people when they're unwell. There's like huge spread.

I [00:30:00] have interfaced with all these different systems, and I actually, I made a free document, it's out there on the internet, trying to answer, "what could a more just healthcare and healing practice look like?" And this was actually, I made this for my patients that came to me for acupuncture, but we're also interfacing with the mainstream medical system and were having a hard time advocating for themselves.

Having a template or a piece of paper to build a compass as to how they were going into the treatment room and what they were asking in order to feel like they were being treated with dignity. On top of that, not being retraumatized, or re harmed in the treatment room, which is a huge barrier to access, right?

I think for a lot of people there's been so many negative experiences within the mainstream medical system where that becomes a barrier to care, actually. People don't want to go to the doctor and be retraumatized. I'm definitely happy [00:31:00] to share that.

Then, there's the level of Private insurance and how do we interface with that system?

And, I personally don't believe that a private insurance system can deliver any kind of care that isn't based on profits instead of wellness of people. And also, we are here now, so it then becomes, "how do we transition from the current reality to one in which people have access to care without having to worry about money?" that's a whole other question.

Another thing that I do wanna mention when I think of healthcare, what I learned as a practitioner is that most of my patients' illnesses were really tied to capitalism. In terms of the things that people come in with the most, right? Headaches, insomnia, digestive issues, menstrual issues, pain, pain that then becomes chronic pain, things like [00:32:00] arthritis at a young age. Most of these illnesses are caused by stress. For the people that I saw, which are people that, like me, have grown up and lived within the working class and working poor reality.

Chronic stress is the norm of trying to survive in a system that does not allow for basic needs to be met without having to break the boundaries of what our bodies are asking for, right?

Where overwork is the norm, where even it's praised, right? This idea of being a good worker means that you truly don't listen to what your body needs, regardless of how ill it's going to make you.

So again, the micro of, how do we enter the treatment room in a way where we can advocate for ourselves in a way that we don't re-experience trauma? And then zooming out, why are we sick in the first place and how are these systems making us sick? And what would systems that [00:33:00] don't ask for mistreatments of our bodies in order to create profit for the wealthy, what would that look like?

Emily Race: Hmm. Yeah. I want to spend time answering that question. I also, in the spirit of the time that we have had booked together, maybe that's part of it too, is sitting with these questions and not trying to get the answer right now perfectly.

Almost another product of capitalism, this idea of productivity, but instead, sitting with that inquiry.

And I wanna point listeners to your Instagram, "The More Just World" series that you had recently shared and it's this beautiful depiction, with some words as well, around what a more just world could look like. So I just wanna say for people who are craving more from you, that to me was a really nourishing way to start to see what your vision might be.

Did you wanna expand anything on that series, while we're on it?

Chiara Francesca: Oh, I love that. I'm so glad that it did something good.

That was an attempt to visualize what something different could look like. So it was a series of questions that [00:34:00] has some of the answers built in, you know?

Emily Race: Yes.

Chiara Francesca: So one of the questions was, " what if cities and towns were built for humans and center children, elders and disabled kin instead of cars?"

I grew up in a country where cities are super dense with humans, not cars, because they were built before cars. But that really, really changes the dynamics of the hierarchy, of who the city's built for and who has access to it.

And even how 85 year old grandmas can easily walk to the grocery store, see their friends, all that stuff.

So it was a series of 10 questions to poke at our imagination and visualize what a more human world could look like.

Cause you know, it's really easy to think that where we are at is normal, meaning that when something becomes normal, then the next step is that it becomes invisible. And then we stop thinking that it can change or that there's any other way for things to be.

[00:35:00] So that was the little fire that was behind that.

And also the heartbreak of being like "Things don't have to be like this." I know that. I know we can do so much better. And we can. We created this world, we were born into it, which is complicated, we personally didn't do it. we have many generations of having to create something different now. But there's nothing inevitable about it, right? All a series of choices.

Emily Race: Yeah. We have the power for the creation moving forward.

This just also highlights how artists like yourself are so crucial, in this transformation, in this moment of rebirth. To imagine and to have art that helps us imagine and to get into that space, is also an act of resistance in itself I feel like.

So to close this out here, two last question for you.

One being, what could people leave with as an inquiry or an action from this conversation?

Chiara Francesca: Ooh. I think it's very hard to answer that because everyone is gonna need something different. So taking a second to sit with yourself [00:36:00] and thinking about what you crave most in your life that would move you towards feeling more human. And also what are the things in your life that are taking away from your humanity? And is there room for change?

Emily Race: Mm. So potent of an inquiry. I love it. Thank you.

And then lastly, how may we support you or collaborate with you if that's something you're open to in the future?

Chiara Francesca: Oh, that's so nice. That is a question I never have an answer for. I don't, cause I'm like, take that energy and just put it towards your neighbor, you know what I'm saying? Put it towards your neighborhood, your city, yourself, but not in a self-improvement way, but in like, what does your heart need as it's hungry to become more human.

I have to hope that all of us as people do not want a world full of suffering. Like I really have to hope that even when it benefits us

Emily Race: Right.

Chiara Francesca: You know, in some way.

I am on the [00:37:00] internet, so come on over and have a conversation with me if you want to.

Emily Race: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Well, thank you for everything that you offered in this conversation. I personally have a lot to digest over the weekend at least, and share with my family and loved ones, and I'm looking forward to this conversation,getting out there for others to do the same.

I appreciate you. Thank you so much.

Chiara Francesca: Thank you so much.

Emily Race: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Founding Mothers podcast. This podcast is produced and hosted by me, Emily Race, and edited by Eric Weisberg. If you wanna support the show, please leave us a rating or share this episode with the important people in your life.

We'd also love to hear from you if you or someone you know would be a great guest to share about their vision for the world, you can email emily@founding-mothers.com or visit [00:38:00] www.founding-mothers.com/podcast.